Curse

fenix · Jun 27, 2008, 02:25 AM // 02:25

I'm gonna start by saying that I am NOT a fan of Barrage. It's a bad skill, and is not needed, as there are better forms of AoE. I especially hate Barrage that is used on classes OTHER THAN RANGER. Either make a Ranger or gtfo.

As for builds, I feel that BHA is probably the best Ranger build for PvE. Paired with Epidemic, and you destroy teams almost instantly. Sure it doesn't seem like you're doing big numbers, but that's not the point. Aoe Daze can mean the difference between winning, and being lolraep'd by mobs.

As for Warrior, the choices are pretty obvious. Dslash, Cripslash, Evisc, etc.

Monk builds are similar. LoD, WoH and you win. HB if you're bad and have Ursan.

For Ele's, you CANNOT go past SF, Savannah or Mind Blast. Those 3 should be a staple in any build, the AoE is impossible to look past. As for Ether Renewal, yeah it's a cool idea, but meh.

Necromancer builds are obvious. Soul Reaping is still ridiculously strong in PvE, so infinite energy allows you to do whatever the hell you want. Sab's 3 necro build is a good example. Even a regular Spiteful necro can be very strong if you bring the right utilities.

Mesmer is a little tricker. There aren't any obvious OMFGDAMAGE builds, but like Ranger, that isn't the point. Esurge and Edenial is strong and fun in certain places, and Migraine has won me many missions and dungeons. Of course, there's Cry of Pain, which is pretty lulz. I've been also using the usual Signet Mesmer PvP build in PvE, with a couple changes, and it's RIDICULOUSLY strong.

Assassin is pretty simple too, Moebius blows things up pretty well. You can really run whatever you like as a sin, most builds are very good. Just make sure you don't battle lion too much, the low AL can be a hassle.

Ritualist is good. Barrage on one makes me sick to my stomach. So really, unless you're retarded, don't run it. Go with (and I have to say this) a more of a bitch role. Sure it's lame, but it makes you win fastttt. Offering of Spirit with Splinter, Ancestors, a couple heals, maybe chuck in Spirit Rift, and you're gonna blow things up super fast. A full heal bar is also good if you have a team that are smart and don't instantly spam OMFG UR NOT MUNK.

Dervish. Come on now, do I really need to write something here? Perma-form. Wounding Strike. There are many choices of how to break PvE with a Dervish.

Paragon. I'm not even going to write something. If you can't win PvE with a Paragon, go play some other game.

Sha Noran · Jun 27, 2008, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

I'm gonna start by saying that I am NOT a fan of Barrage. It's a bad skill, and is not needed, as there are better forms of AoE. I especially hate Barrage that is used on classes OTHER THAN RANGER. Either make a Ranger or gtfo.

As for builds, I feel that BHA is probably the best Ranger build for PvE. Paired with Epidemic, and you destroy teams almost instantly. Sure it doesn't seem like you're doing big numbers, but that's not the point. Aoe Daze can mean the difference between winning, and being lolraep'd by mobs.

As for Warrior, the choices are pretty obvious. Dslash, Cripslash, Evisc, etc.

Monk builds are similar. LoD, WoH and you win. HB if you're bad and have Ursan.

For Ele's, you CANNOT go past SF, Savannah or Mind Blast. Those 3 should be a staple in any build, the AoE is impossible to look past. As for Ether Renewal, yeah it's a cool idea, but meh.

Necromancer builds are obvious. Soul Reaping is still ridiculously strong in PvE, so infinite energy allows you to do whatever the hell you want. Sab's 3 necro build is a good example. Even a regular Spiteful necro can be very strong if you bring the right utilities.

Mesmer is a little tricker. There aren't any obvious OMFGDAMAGE builds, but like Ranger, that isn't the point. Esurge and Edenial is strong and fun in certain places, and Migraine has won me many missions and dungeons. Of course, there's Cry of Pain, which is pretty lulz. I've been also using the usual Signet Mesmer PvP build in PvE, with a couple changes, and it's RIDICULOUSLY strong.

Assassin is pretty simple too, Moebius blows things up pretty well. You can really run whatever you like as a sin, most builds are very good. Just make sure you don't battle lion too much, the low AL can be a hassle.

Ritualist is good. Barrage on one makes me sick to my stomach. So really, unless you're retarded, don't run it. Go with (and I have to say this) a more of a bitch role. Sure it's lame, but it makes you win fastttt. Offering of Spirit with Splinter, Ancestors, a couple heals, maybe chuck in Spirit Rift, and you're gonna blow things up super fast. A full heal bar is also good if you have a team that are smart and don't instantly spam OMFG UR NOT MUNK.

Dervish. Come on now, do I really need to write something here? Perma-form. Wounding Strike. There are many choices of how to break PvE with a Dervish.

Paragon. I'm not even going to write something. If you can't win PvE with a Paragon, go play some other game.

This is a quality post which perfectly illustrates the stagnation in PvE builds that most players are sick of rather than happy about.

Lady Lozza · Jun 27, 2008, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Oh no on Rit I'd run with caretaker's, spirit rift, that skill that does the extra damage for holding things (yeah I can't remember it). Nice spike damage with energy recharge.

fenix · Jun 27, 2008, 02:37 AM // 02:37

I was going to add Caretakers to the list but forgot about it. It's also a very good skill if you're holding Kaolai all the time.

Avarre · Jun 27, 2008, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregslot

You are forggeting that Signet of Illusions at 16 makes all title track skills go to rank 11, you can get summons at lvl 21. And not every decent players have alliance rank at maximum (making -8 degen deadly).

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

If you're using your elite slot just to make other skills on your bar 1 rank higher, then that should tell you something about your overall effectiveness.

There are some elites that actually do useful stuff. I bet you whatever you like that say... a N/Me with Mesmer PvE skills and Spiteful as the elite will be more useful than a Mesmer with the same skills and 1 more rank on each title track from SoI.

It will also have limitless energy.

Sure, SoI compensates for those who don't grind (that's a good thing, grinding for effectiveness shouldn't be in GW), but if you're comparing skills you can't compare at a lower-than-max level. It'll be like all those threads about the changes to empathy making it bad in Pre-Sear.

Clarissa F · Jun 27, 2008, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Mesmers and Rangers can be just as good as any other profession...if you play intelligent. Yeah, they have no ZOMGUPWNFACE build for everything(I'm looking at you, SY), but they are great at having a multitude of builds for every situation, and they don't have to rely on a grind skill to do it.

That being said, PvE is what it is: broken. If imba professions get to you, try PvP. The first time a mesmer makes you cry, you will get why they were so weakened in PvE.

GourangaPizza · Jun 27, 2008, 03:35 AM // 03:35

^ I was think along the lines of a mesmer using Signet of Corruption + Ether Nightmare + Cry of Pain + Mantra of Recovery.

Master Sword Keeper · Jun 27, 2008, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Actually i have a ranger build recently discovered.

Does 100dmg+ every hit
With a bow.

Kills bosses in mere seconds.
Destroys a monster of lvl 28 within several seconds.
Kills any low level monster instantly.

Leave it to the pro's to find ranger builds.

ty.
hf and gl.

Nessar · Jun 27, 2008, 03:56 AM // 03:56

My ranger actually kills thing within seconds. In PvE and PvP.

It's not *that* hard to make a spike ranger build

Master Sword Keeper · Jun 27, 2008, 03:58 AM // 03:58

i dont recommend it for PvP too many variables.

Lets just say, it makes The Fire Chain island missions easy to do.

Deldrimor weapons anyone?

GloryFox · Jun 27, 2008, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Mesmers have CoP Spike teams. Even before Ursan the DVDF Guild cleared all four area's of Domain of Anguish using all Mesmer teams.

Individually I would agree the Mesmer can't compare to others classes soloing, but in groups they do seem to do well.

Lady Lozza · Jun 27, 2008, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

If you're using your elite slot just to make other skills on your bar 1 rank higher, then that should tell you something about your overall effectiveness.

There are some elites that actually do useful stuff. I bet you whatever you like that say... a N/Me with Mesmer PvE skills and Spiteful as the elite will be more useful than a Mesmer with the same skills and 1 more rank on each title track from SoI.

It will also have limitless energy.

Sure, SoI compensates for those who don't grind (that's a good thing, grinding for effectiveness shouldn't be in GW), but if you're comparing skills you can't compare at a lower-than-max level. It'll be like all those threads about the changes to empathy making it bad in Pre-Sear.

I disagree. When it comes to PvE skills it is completely valid to comment on the rank rise the SoI gives to non-maxed tracks. Why? Not everyone grinds, not everyone CAN grind (ie they don't have the time/inclination to do so). Since not everyone therefore has access to the rank at the highest level, the usefulness of SoI is immeasurable for many players. Remember rank is not like attribute points, where not getting those final 30 are a choice (one or two attribute ranks) is a choice.

A necro however, will only be able to run necro skills to their full efficiency. A mesmer will be able to run ALL spells to their full potential. Depending on what you are seeking to accomplish a necro with SS might be better running mesmer pve skills than a mesmer with SoI (provided they have the title/s maxed) however this debate is more about why some classes have over-powered builds and some do not.

When running a mesmer with 3 pve skills from different title tracks SoI really is over-powered. Hell, take arcane mimicry and an SS hero and you have SS at 16 soul-reaping too.

SoI has made many combo builds possible. Combo builds that are incredibly over-powered in a team play environment - evne if that team is just hh.

Striken7 · Jun 27, 2008, 04:48 AM // 04:48

This thread is what's wrong with pug's; if it's not ridiculously overpowered then it must be bad.

Go vote for more cookie cutters on pvxwiki, I'll be busy racking up the kills using my own *fun* builds and my H/H.

Lady Lozza · Jun 27, 2008, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striken7

This thread is what's wrong with pug's; if it's not ridiculously overpowered then it must be bad.

This is true but only in part. What is wrong with pugs is that if it isn't from pvxwiki then it must be bad. What is on the wiki is only what I would call "phase 1" of many of the builds. Many of the builds have evolved to become more efficient - just look at the HB monk skill bar. Healing seed... hmm. Yeah there are skills that could work better there. Of course you would get kicked from many pugs for trying to mod such bars.

Over-powered is a function of PvE. Period. Most pve players are just about killing things quickly for "phat lewt". Pugs are just incidental to pve. If you want to pug with as little grief as possible you conform. Or you do what most players have done and don't pug.

Savio · Jun 27, 2008, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

Since not everyone therefore has access to the rank at the highest level, the usefulness of SoI is immeasurable for many players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striken7

Go vote for more cookie cutters on pvxwiki, I'll be busy racking up the kills using my own *fun* builds and my H/H.

Efficiency =/= usefulness =/= fun. Last I checked this thread was about powerful builds, which falls into the realm of efficiency.

Lady Lozza · Jun 27, 2008, 05:15 AM // 05:15

I beg to disagree, Savio. The thread is indeed about powerful, or over-powered, builds. But over-powered builds are not necessarily efficient. Just as you pointed out that useful is not necessarily efficient, nor necessarily over-powered.

Shayne Hawke · Jun 27, 2008, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Seems like it's okay to say that imba classes can abuse their secondaries to have greatness, but those secondaries have no chance at being an OP class. Let's start by removing /E from perma-SFs and /W from Imbagons and see how far that gets you.

Assuming you get my point, Monks, Ritualists, and Mesmers are not useless. Go find an Imbagon running Hexbreaker Aria, and when you don't, go find another hex removal from your five imba classes.

Past that, Orders Dervishes and Splinter Barragers have been conjured up in various builds. [[Broad Head Arrow] and [[Wounding Strike] are two extreme elites I can think of off the top of my head that are already OP in their own ways.

Every class has a niche to fill better than any other class can. You've failed to see some of those niches apparently.

btw, thanks to UB, no class is underpowered. Just get R10 Norn and gogogo.

Cathode_Reborn · Jun 27, 2008, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Mesmers have CoP Spike teams. Even before Ursan the DVDF Guild cleared all four area's of Domain of Anguish using all Mesmer teams.

Assuming I wanted to get somethin done really fast using a CoP team, there would probably only be 1 primary mes. The rest could just be x/Me's...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striken7

This thread is what's wrong with pug's; if it's not ridiculously overpowered then it must be bad.

Last time I checked, pug's were still using outdated bad builds. Assuming you join a strict pug, they'll have a team that falls apart just because the stupid tank that they were so reliant on died.....of course if they're not running somethin like that, it's Ursan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

If it weren't for the issue of having only 3 pve only skills on the bar SoI mesmers could easily rival Ursan - with the added advantage of not needed to grind points.

Ursan is the Sway of GW - it's powerful and easy to use, but good players with real builds can easily outdo it. Builds that can rival and outdo Ursan is old news.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

If monsters were given more intuitive bars, like players bring on their mesmers to PVP, the problem would be much less. If monsters actually had decent skill bars and walked in more balanced packs it would be much more worth it to bring a "disruptor" type.

I would really love that, it'd make PvE require abit more skill and less mindless nuking. The prob is it wouldn't be as casual anymore if it became too hard. Unfortunetly, the "hard" we have now isn't balanced mobs with viable 8skillbars....instead, it's stuff that can do upto 300+dmg along with a perma 33% speed/cast bonus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazza558

For example, here's an arguable list of the imba builds for each profession.

Necromancer: Sabway/3 Necroway (only applies in teams)

It's a pretty good setup, but from my exerperience, only bad players consider it overpowered.

[skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill][skill]Technobabble[/skill][skill]Enfeebling Blood[/skill]

....Pretty much a counter to everything - that's a nec's golden combination in PvE

Alota people say there everything is "overpowered" in PvE. That depends on what your definition of "overpowered in PvE" is. Deciding that somethin is overpowered just because it can get through pretty much all of PvE is stupid, cause it brings you to why people deem everything as overpowered. Whether somethin is overpowered or not in PvE should be based on how how better it is compared to other player builds and classes. One example is a typical "SY" paragon - it makes pretty much just about every other para build inferior, along with most defensive skills from other classes. That right there is overpowered.

Savio · Jun 27, 2008, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

But over-powered builds are not necessarily efficient.

Efficiency and overpoweredness go hand in hand; an overpowered build is excessively efficient. Look at ursan; you only have to hammer half a skillbar to be as effective as a decent warrior. SF - you're getting ectos more efficiently than other builds. Imbagon - maintainable party defense on a single character. They accomplish tasks much faster and much more easily than your standard builds.

Lady Lozza · Jun 27, 2008, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

Ursan is the Sway of GW - it's powerful and easy to use, but good players with real builds can easily outdo it. Builds that can rival and outdo Ursan is old news.

I disagree with this to some extent. Let's forget about the average player and just take good players and good teams. You can be a good ursan team, holding aggros, chaining kd, etc. You can also be a good non-ursan team. Last I check, and I must admit it was a little while so I could be wrong, a good ursan team will clear certain areas faster than a good non-ursan team.

Quote:

Deciding that somethin is overpowered just because it can get through pretty much all of PvE is stupid, cause it brings you to why people deem everything as overpowered. Whether somethin is overpowered or not in PvE should be based on how how better it is compared to other player builds and classes. One example is a typical "SY" paragon - it makes pretty much just about every other para build inferior, along with most defensive skills from other classes. That right there is overpowered.

This I can agree with. The OP has been somewhat inconsistant about his/her list of over-powered builds. It depends on any number of things. You can't list ursan and SF in the same group, their purpose is completely different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Efficiency and overpoweredness go hand in hand; an overpowered build is excessively efficient. Look at ursan; you only have to hammer half a skillbar to be as effective as a decent warrior. SF - you're getting ectos more efficiently than other builds. Imbagon - maintainable party defense on a single character. They accomplish tasks much faster and much more easily than your standard builds.

Once again I disagree. Let's leave Ursan and SF to one side because I agree that in many cases these builds are the most efficient in doing what needs to be done.

Let's take a mostly ele team. They can roll FoW pretty fast with searing flames, and some ER HP spammers or HB-GolE-HP, and a BIP necro. This is over-powered, or so most people would say. But is it efficient? Is the BIP necessary? If all they are doing is constantly BIP'ing or BR'ing people are they actually contributing to the team? Let's face it, e-management isn't as hard as it used to be in the days of prophecies. Why waste a team spot when you don't need to? When adding e-management into a build and adding extra damage team mate would make the trip even faster? This (team) build is overpowered, but not efficient.